The final nail in the coffin

[Smashchu]

Well, I don't think he's as likely as people make it out to be. He wasn't on the poll even once so hios chances aren't too high. He's a possibility but I could see Geno over him.

[Spud]

smashchu2 said:

nidorino said:

Also,
Super Smash Bros. Brawl - Mario's Down Special Move - Delfino Plaza = Bowser Jr. + Shadow Mario

Just becuase iof Sunshine stuff in the game doesn't mean Bowser Jr. is upright in. Bowser Jr. wasn't on the poll at all so it hurts his chances, and right now, Geno is the most popular Mario characters hands down.

Bowser Jr. should just turn into a shadow version of a random character for a short amount of time. That would be much better.

[Smashchu]

spud said:

smashchu2 said:

Just becuase iof Sunshine stuff in the game doesn't mean Bowser Jr. is upright in. Bowser Jr. wasn't on the poll at all so it hurts his chances, and right now, Geno is the most popular Mario characters hands down.

Bowser Jr. should just turn into a shadow version of a random character for a short amount of time. That would be much better.

If he's in the game, I doubt he'll be going all shadow on us. He only did that in one game.

[TV Eye]

smashchu2 said:

spud said:

Bowser Jr. should just turn into a shadow version of a random character for a short amount of time. That would be much better.

If he's in the game, I doubt he'll be going all shadow on us. He only did that in one game.

Well, Mario only had FLUDD in one game...

[Arcadenik]

Mario also had the cape in one game. Toad and Bowser Jr. are better choices to represent Mario series alongside Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Peach. Geno is not an ideal representative of the Mario series. He only represents one Mario game from 11 years ago and he's not even 100% owned by Nintendo. Yes, I love SMRPG and I'm even replaying the game on my SNES but Geno does not represent the Mario series like Mario, Luigi, Bowser, and Peach do. Even Dr. Mario doesn't represent the Mario series and he only got in just because Sakurai liked his music. So if Geno does get in Brawl as a newcomer, it won't be because he represents the Mario series, but because Sakurai likes the character (I think).

[Game Guru]

sgtmajorkururu said:

I'm lukewarm on the subject of Bowser Jr. being in Brawl, bordering on interest--only because he seems so likely and I see no reason to feel strongly against the notion. However, I heartily disagree with the thought of a Shadow Mario transformation, only because I'm tired with Mario clones/half clones. The only "Other Mario" that Brawl needs is Luigi, and even then I'd be partial to him having his own moveset. Bowser Jr. can do enough on his own without needing a transformation.

Luigi kinda DOES have to have his own moveset now! I mean, he's got that Green Missle, and likely a different Final Smash, AND would need the Poultergust to replace his Down+B Cyclone Move. He pretty much would only have his Fireball and Super Jump Punch shared with Mario, and both are the most notable moves of Luigi's Arsenal from the old Smash Bros games AND from the old Mario games.

Ridley, Krystal, Geno, Capt. Olimar, and Takamaru are the ones highest on the Poll... While some say that it's not the actual popularity of them, but instead just interesting comment... The comments are interesting to SAKURAI, meaning that this poll... if it isn't popularity, then it must be Sakurai's LIKE for the character, since it's his poll and his choices in posts.

[Deleted]

smashchu2 said:

Well, I don't think he's as likely as people make it out to be. He wasn't on the poll even once so hios chances aren't too high. He's a possibility but I could see Geno over him.

Pokémon Trainer wasn't on the Brawl poll either if I recall correctly. The poll is not the be-all-to-end-all for who will and will not be playable in the game, and I'm actually kind of tired of people referring to it as if it were. In the end, it's Sakurai who gets to choose who gets that character slot, not some silly poll cast in only one region of the world and whose final numbers don't represent the amount of votes they had, but rather the amount of comments each character had on them that Sakurai found interesting.

If SMB were to get a fifth representative, Bowser Jr. would be it because he's proven himself important to the main games ever since his introduction, as well as most of the spin-offs. And SMB is very, very likely to get that fifth representative.

[Smashchu]

sgtmajorkururu said:

smashchu2 said:

Well, I don't think he's as likely as people make it out to be. He wasn't on the poll even once so hios chances aren't too high. He's a possibility but I could see Geno over him.

Pokémon Trainer wasn't on the Brawl poll either if I recall correctly. The poll is not the be-all-to-end-all for who will and will not be playable in the game, and I'm actually kind of tired of people referring to it as if it were. In the end, it's Sakurai who gets to choose who gets that character slot, not some silly poll cast in only one region of the world and whose final numbers don't represent the amount of votes they had, but rather the amount of comments each character had on them that Sakurai found interesting.

Yes, but he was on the Melee poll.

So far, since the poll was made, 4 of the 6 characters came right off of it. Sonic was also a show of popularity becuase, despite not being popular at all in Japan, he made it into Brawl.

Sakurai takes these to heart. It's the same way with the Melee poll. The characters who were really high got into Melee. Now, with Brawl, it happens in the same way. The poll defiantly means something. In fact, this one is even more evident becuase he makes comments about the characters, showing his interest in adding them. While Sakurai has his own ideas, it's safe to say the higher characters will probably be in Brawl.

The problem is that the characters i9n Brawl represent the franchise (for Mario). As I said, after Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser, there isn't much left. But Bowser Jr. suffers from an obvious lack of popularity. If the poll has told us anything, it's this: characters with 12 don't usually become playable. PT is so far the only character to be added without popularity. So with that in mind Bowser Jr. isn't that likely. Hen still stands a chance, but his chance may be relative to whether or not Geno makes it in.

[Flip]

Bowser Jr. would be a fun addition and likely as all hell, I'm not gonna lie. I like the little tyke a lot. But Geno is just more Sakurai's cup of tea. The guy beat the crap out of Waluigi and Stafy and other character suggestions people wouldn't shut up about. I don't doubt we'll see the same happen to Jr., him becoming an Assist Trophy. I mean, is the character really that fresh and unique? He won't bring much more to the game that isn't there already, I figure.

This is going to sound like a n00b argument, but we already have Squirtle and Bowser. Can the game take another turtle? I can't see Jr. being much different from Squirtle in stats and A moves, and his Specials can't be too far from Bowser's. If you look at similar characters that did make it into the game, they made a point to pull out the most unique attacks they could for those characters. They could do it for Jr., but is he really going to have a positive fan reaction? Diddy was well-liked because he had "jungle-technology" and was light while DK was heavy; people flipped when they saw all the swordfighters but were excited to hear how variable they were from one to the next. Jr. does not have the repertoire to pull from to make him completely unique. Yeah, I can think of a good moveset for him and so can Sakurai, but is he going to be that desirable? That cool to have in game?

I just personally feel that Geno is the far better choice for a fifth Mario character. He has better poll results, more old-school appeal, a wider breadth of moves, far more character and spunk than the Jr. option, and he's just damn fresh. Freshness is what the game needs. Why else would they give Mario FLUDD or turn Samus into Zero Suit Samus? The game isn't Melee; it needs its own legacy. And I think Geno adds to that.

"Woah, who the hell is that?" "It's Geno! He's from that game Mario RPG. He's some kind of puppet." "SICK! He fires lasers and junk. And look, he just fell apart when he got hit. That's so awesome!" "I know. What the hell was Nintendo thinking not using this guy more often."

Compare that to: "Oh, look it's Jr." "That's pretty cool. Does he turn into Shadow Mario or something?" "No, he flings his paintbrush and traps people in goop." "That's... uber-lame. What else does he do?" "Eh, I don't know. He laughs a lot. I hated him in Double Dash. They need to bring back the Koopalings!" "WOAH! Is that Luigi with the Poltergust?!" "You know it!"

It's like the reactions people had when they saw Ice Climbers or Game and Watch versus the reactions people had upon seeing Pichu. It's like Night and Day.

[Smashchu]

Actually, think about what you said, it would be neat seeing Geno getting hit. Flailing limbs going in dirrections physically impossible for those who have bones.

I do agree with Flip. Most would consider Jr more important on the grounds that he's been seen more and played a role in those games. This holds some water, but Sakurai will probably go with Geno because he is different (in terms of movements and attacks), popular, and old-skool. Sakurai likes that. Ninetendo sends a lot of characters to the grave and Sakurai loves digging them up. Why else would we have G&W, the Ice Climbers and Pit.

[Johans Nidorino]

Is it possible that Bowser Jr.'s lack of an appearance in the poll rules him out? There have been more games since the poll's date that have given him that status that makes us afraid of saying or hearing "he won't be in!".

I do feel he lacks something spectacular or peculiar on his moveset, too. I'd give him a flame attack like those Bowser shot in more than 3 main Mario games, but unfortunately Bowser Jr. hasn't thrown them, which would make me back off. The clone of Squirtle's Withdraw is a must, though.

I have read the interesting conjecture (I think it was by you, Flip), that it must be "all or nothing" ("why asking the rights for Geno if he's going to be less than playable?"). But would it be that bad just to ask the rights for him to be an Assist Trophy? Judging from what we've seen in these months, I perceive that fan demand wouldn't be enough to make Geno playable.

Like it has been said before, his inclusion would make more sense as a director's personal liking or a promotional inclusion.

[TV Eye]

All this talk of Bowser Jr. being a clone doesn't make sense to me. So in his defense, I created a moveset...in MSPaint...

[Smashchu]

nidorino said:

Judging from what we've seen in these months, I perceive that fan demand wouldn't be enough to make Geno playable.

You don't know Geno fans. They are detirmed. Heck, they are in love with a game that they have been waiting 11yrs for a remake or sequel. That's dedication. They may not be crazy like the Krystal fans, but they are loyal.

[Arcadenik]

That's kinda silly.. So Bowser Jr. can't be playable because we already have two playable turtles with Bowser and Squirtle? Maybe Takamaru, Marth, and Young Link shouldn't be playable because we already have three sword-fighters with Link, Meta Knight, and Ike. Maybe Luigi shouldn't be playable because we already have two playable plumbers with Mario and Overalls Wario.

[Manspeed]

At the end of all this, it comes down to one question: Do we really need a fifth Mario character?