Thoughts on the Final Roster (Spoilers)

[mopinks]

there's a big difference between the Advance Wars series and the other games that got representation in AT form, in that the Wars series is twenty years old and spans almost every single major Nintendo platform. it's not some flash-in-the-pan minor or forgotten franchise like, say, Kid icarus, but it still got just about the bare minimum of acknowledgement possible. it's really the only series you can say that for, which is why people who are upset about it actually have a valid complaint.

[Arcadenik]

Good point. Kid Icarus only got what? Two games.. and it got a playable character, plenty of trophies.. while Nintendo Wars is roughly the same age as Kid Icarus but got about 10 games on almost every Nintendo console yet it only gets one AT and it is sprites ripped right out of Advance Wars.

[Neko Neko Panic]

Masa, I don't mean to be insulting, but that strikes me as the sort of reaction a child in a tantrum might give. To most people, having at least some nod to something they like is better than having it be ignored entirely, at least from what I've seen of people. It sounds a lot like you're just going "Well since I didn't get it exactly like I wanted, I don't want anything at all!" To me, having "ripped sprites" of the game as an AT (which, as has been said, is a crucial thing in the game. An AT causes effects in a battle, it's pretty much just short of a playable character.) is definately a strong reference to the franchise, I'd even say more than just a slight nod. Besides, you've got to remember: just because the stickers and AT pale in comparison to your personal collection of Wars fandom, that's not true for everyone such as, say, casual Wars fans. Perhaps they haven't downloaded a hard drive full of .jpgs and being able to view those stickers and AT are a boon to them. Looking at it like that, your saying "I wish there was no Wars content in the game at all!" is wishing ill on those casual Wars fans. You'd be hurting your fellows. There are things I'd like. Having Meowth playable would be a cool thing, for instance, but just because he isn't doesn't make me angry that he's a pokeball pokemon. I love having him back as an assist pokemon.

You should just step back and consider that you might be overracting a bit about not getting your way, perhaps those things you're saying are just in a moment of passion. Hopefully, those feelings will subside soon so you can have the maximum enjoyment of Brawl, and so when you see those Wars sprites come out of that AT, you might feel happy that characters you enjoy are there helping you in battle and not feel rage at not having a fully playable Wars character.

[Hiker of Games]

My moment of passion was this morning (which you can see by the way my posts were). I still stand by what I say about me rather wishing there was nothing at all. You don't see where I'm coming from here. You keep comparing this to Kid Icarus... Meowth... Ridley, whatever.

What if the only thing from Metroid was a few Samus stickers and a Geemer sprite AT attacking the enemies?

What if the only thing from Zelda was a few Link stickers and an Octorok sprite AT?

See where I'm coming from there? Those are both series of comparable sizes to Wars, but they have -tons- of stuff. My rage isn't about no playable character. Sure, I'd have liked one, but I never really -counted- on it. I did expect better though. I did expect a few trophies to show up. Maybe an actual 3D AT instead of some sprites. Hell, maybe a song or two.

A lot of it is shock at how underwhelming the series has in Brawl. Look at the represented franchises a moment here:

Fire Emblem - Ten games
Metroid - Ten games
F-Zero - Six games
Star Fox - Five games.
Animal Crossing - a grand total of three games!
Mother - Again, three games!
Pikmin - Two games.
Kid Icarus - Two games.
Ice Climber - One game

Paints an interesting picture, don't it? The only franchises longer than that are Mario, Wario, DK, Zelda, Kirby, and Pokemon. I think I'm also surprised at how few other people seem to actually notice that.

So is it a temper tantrum? I don't think so. Of course, I'm 'whining' which makes me automatically wrong in every regard to anything ever. But basically when I see the Wars AT, I'm not going to think, "Man. That's cool." It's going to taint my otherwise perfect Brawl experience by making me think, "Oh yeah... that's it, isn't it?" Or maybe I'll pretend it's a Star Fox AT.

[Neko Neko Panic]

Honestly? If Metroid or Zelda were in that same "not popualr in Japan anymore" situation you described about Wars, and there was only stickers and a sprite AT... I wouldn't be upset, or at least I wouldn't prefer to have nothing at all. I find completely ignoring something more insulting.

Speaking of popuarity, we've got to consider a few things. A lot of those "not many games" franchises are in because they are popular now, by a decent amount of people. (Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Metroid, Fire Emblem, Star Fox) Or, they have a strong "underground" pull, but still with a lot of people (Pikmin - yes, it falls into both - ,Mother, Kid Icarus).

Plus, there's again the point you mde about Wars dropping off in Japan post 9-11. Well, to be fair: Brawl is being made in Japan, by a Japanese company, with a Japanese lead designer and team. There's no way to completely avoid some kind of bias. But you know what? Sakurai tried to counteract the bias a little. I mean, was I mistaken when I kept hearing that Kid Icarus was more popular in US than Japan? Plus, if it were completely Japan-biased, there'd have been no Wars content at all. Having what we got shows an effort to do something for Wars fans.

So again, I can't see why you'd prefer nothing at all. That's like someone who's starving and imagines a Thanksgiving-level turkey dinner. A kindly man comes along and offers him a turkey sandwich, but the starving man slaps the sandwich out of the man's hand and declares that if he can't have a whole turkey, he wants no turkey at all.

Seems slightly ungrateful to me.

[Hiker of Games]

Your analogy fails because I'm not starving. I'm somebody who, come March, is gonna shell out fifty clams for a game. Sakurai isn't personally going to give me the game as a gift.

And the popularity thing is rather bizarre, given Mother isn't that popular at all. Besides that, Wars is made by a Japanese company too. Apparently they realize there's people who buy games outside Japan. Maybe they should clue Sakurai in?

[Neko Neko Panic]

masamune said:

Maybe they should clue Sakurai in?

I still think it's pretty clear that he's fully aware of that and made allowances for US audiences.

masamune said:

Your analogy fails because I'm not starving.

Hmm. Good point. New analogy:

A hungry man, who loves turkey more than any other lunch meat, walks to a sandwich shop which is having a special on sandwiches containing several kinds of meat, including some turkey. They don't have enough turkey to make a sandwich of only that. He buys the sandwich on special because he is hungry and he loves turkey, but the whole time he complains that since there is not at least as much turkey on it as there is any other kind of meat, that he wishes there were no turkey on it at all. He doesn't dislike any of the other meats, in fact he thinks most of them are fine. He just likes turkey the most.

Now why would a man who loves turkey so much say this? How is no turkey better than at least a little turkey? Sure, more turkey would be great. But at least having some should be a good thing. It boggles the mind.

EDIT:
Ok, I'm gonna stop with the turkey now, I was just trying to incorporate turkey sandwiches in the new version since it's what I had originally used.

[Hiker of Games]

Here's a better analogy for you.

The sandwich shop has a crapton of meat. A man asks for a turkey sammich. But the shop owner isn't a fan of turkey and gives him ham. The man eats the sandwich anyways, but writes a complaint that he didn't get what he wanted. Then he tells someone about it and he gets chewed out for throwing a tantrum about it.

Then he goes home, sits down, and says out loud, "What the hell?"

[Neko Neko Panic]

But there is some turkey on the sandwich. Just cause it's not the finest turkey around doesn't mean it isn't there. You saying you'd "rather have no Wars content" would be asking for the Ham sandwich instead of one with some turkey.

Plus, he's making the same sandwiches for everyone, and not everyone likes the same things. And he just happens to be from a region where a lot of people like ham. But at least he threw some turkey in for the people who like it. I think that was a nice gesture, personally.

Also, I really do intend to stop with the turkey soon.

[Hiker of Games]

We're arguing over the semantics of an analogy here. Isn't that a bit silly?

Let's just be content that we don't agree. I feel that, since I'm buying the game, I'm perfectly justified in not being 100% satisfied with the game (but still satisfied overall). And you think... that not being 100% satisfied is bad. Or something. I guess?

[Neko Neko Panic]

Hmm... I saw it more as arguing about something using an analogy as a means to analyze the situtation. Ah well.

I'm not saying you're wrong for being less than 100% satisfied. I just feel you're being a bit silly saying None of <thing I like> is better than Some of <thing I like>, and I think it's slightly insulting to the effort that was put into Brawl when you imply that <thing I like> fans were intentionally slighted by Brawl's creators, since they did put *something* from it in instead of pretending it didn't exist.

I think it's only fair to keep in mind that this is for everyone, not just certain segments of fandom. Not everything can have maximum recognition because then the game would take forever. Regardless of which games have had more versions and been on more systems, the fact is that they made the things they made in the order that they made them. They could have added more things, yes, but then it would have taken longer. And I personally don't want to wait any longer than I already have. There will probably be Smash Brothers games for as long as they are profitable. There's always next time for a lot of things. I'd rather have lots of Smash Brothers games that each leave a few things out than to have one Smash Brothers game that has Everything in it but takes 30 years to make.

[Game Guru]

Except Brawl has the light-greenish-brown color! It's just not as much light-greenish-brown that you like.

I also have a few choice words about your defination of 'clone.' Its like you say "Fox, Falco, and Wolf use the LANDMASTAAA! CLONE!" or "Ganondorf doesn't use his sword! CLONE!" and even going so far as to say "OMG! Ike and Marth look vaguely similar! CLONE!"

With the possible exception of Toon Link, I don't see how the clones are any more of a clone than Luigi now.

[Boo Destroyer]

masamune said:

Yes I would. A few ripped sprites and art doesn't do anything for me but make me upset. If it was nothing, then... I'd be happier. It would be like Sakurai doesn't know Advance Wars even exists. That way it would be more like he just forgot about the games, rather than just not giving a damn about them.

I don't see why you'd want to get too into collecting stickers, seeing that you've already collected enough.

[Flip]

Like Sam said, clones are different enough to not really gonzo about it anymore. I'm still upset about it, but what can you do. They were all necessary characters in the end (except friggin Wolf).

My major gripe still lies with LOSS of content. What happened to the Assist Trophies people saw in the game demos? Pokemon from Melee that were pretty damn original? An 8-bit SMB tune? I really, really want to know what the hell these delays were for if there was actual content we KNEW was in the game that ended up missing. It's not the same as like... beta content. It's actual full stuff that was in playable versions of the game incredibly close to release.

Furthermore, the sheer bias is stunning. We cannot deny that. It's understandable that you would place more emphasis towards the franchises that are more popular. But to have no more Kid Icarus trophies than Pit himself? Include overalls Wario but nothing from the Wario Land series? Give Pikmin more stickers than Famicom Wars? It's silly. Downright silly. There are really, really strange decisions that were made during this game's development and I just want answers. If Animal Crossing was so damn popular, why couldn't you have made a character? There were certainly ideas out there if you looked. And did the team legitimately consider the astronomic amount of requests for Geno, or piss away an opportunity for a third 3rd party character? Or ANY third 3rd party character? Why include stickers and music from Joy Mecha Fight and Nazo but no trophies? Why give a bunch of trophies to series like Marionation and Custom Robo but only a few to Stafy? Isn't that on equal pairing? And why give one trophy to a franchise like Magical Vacation or Golden Sun when they were major sellers for the GBA market just as well as Stafy, Fire Emblem, etc.? And then in the end still ditch the Wars series by the wayside?

What I find really funny, though, is that he went ahead and included a Japan-only character in Lucas. Oh, no. Wait. He threw in Ness too. So the balance is restored. And he wanted to keep Marth, another Japan-only. Oh, wait... He added Ike. See? He kept his promise! >.> It annoys me to no end (and I am allowed to say this because it is my right to gripe) the sort of bias Sakurai seems to have placed on what gets in and what doesn't. He threw in plenty of Sonic and Metroid content to appease the Americans, he kept Ness and added Ike so fans of Mother/Fire Emblem outside of Japan wouldn't feel left out, and he gave the mighty axe to awkward "Japan-only" trophies like those from Card Hero and Custom Robo "pre-GCN." Then he goes and ignores the demands for content from the West so he can keep the Japanese fanbase strong: Mother 3, Wario Ware, and Toon Link. He keeps really obscure Japanese content out (like the text RPGs), but keeps the stuff that ultimately annoys Western gamers more. They got an interactive poll, and we got "collected data from NSiders threads." It's typical Nintendo, the standard of "throwing the rest of the world a bone" but keeping it Japan. Little Mac is an Assist, but there's really nothing else Punch-Out in the game. Games Nintendo would rather forget (or at least Sakurai), like Joy Mecha Fight and Nazo, get relegated to one sticker each. And everything DS, Wii, and frigging Animal Crossing becomes emphasized as ultra-important to the game.

I just wanted a fantastic update to Melee with a slew of characters and stages. It's got those things, sure, but it's not the way I pictured it in the least. I don't feel cheated. The game will be incredible through and through. But I feel almost marginalized as a fanboy and a non-Japanese because a lot of this stuff isn't geared my way. I love the Zelda, Mario, DK, Pokemon, etc. content. I'm excited Pit got revived. But the game just isn't appealing to me right now. My hype was absolutely demolished when all this stuff started getting revealed. I want to play it, I want to enjoy it. I will buy it. But will I get as excited over it like I did Melee? No. Not so much. The focus and love for the fans just doesn't feel there for me. It's all bell and whistles but no actual meat. The reviews coming out from anything that isn't Famitsu all reflect that, and although they are just reviews you have to take that as meaning something.

At least there's so much music and stage builder content that gameplay won't get old. I just hope that whenever SSB4 is announced it decides to finally include some of that top-requested content from this time around and not only reintroduces some of the stuff cut from Melee to Brawl but leaves Brawl's content fully and completely intact. That would content me most.

[Hiker of Games]

boodestroyer said:

masamune said:

Yes I would. A few ripped sprites and art doesn't do anything for me but make me upset. If it was nothing, then... I'd be happier. It would be like Sakurai doesn't know Advance Wars even exists. That way it would be more like he just forgot about the games, rather than just not giving a damn about them.

I don't see why you'd want to get too into collecting stickers, seeing that you've already collected enough.

But only 8000+ stickers. A sticker collection without 10,000 pictures isn't even worth -mentioning-.