Thoughts on the Final Roster (Spoilers)

[Sqrt2]

Personally I can't see why Sakurai would choose the inclusion of ROB over that of Ridley, K.Rool, Mewtwo etc. He hasn't starred in any game series (not including his cameo appearance in F-Zero GX, and his novelty appearance in MKDS), and therefore I don't really think he should be in. Plus, I don't really think he's suited to be in a smash bros game.

That makes it two characters I'll try to avoid playing as....

As for Wolf being another Fox clone, I'm really disappointed. I'd rather have had a non-clone Krystal than this, but I guess we're stuck with it.

And talking of Krystal's non-appearance... hooray!

Other than these points, I'm really liking the roster (apart from the non-inclusion of Roy, Mewtwo and Dr.Mario).

[Fryguy64]

ROB is an excellent addition. I've wanted him in since before I knew the final Melee roster. I don't know why everyone's so beat up about him being there.

And ROB's had a load more cameos than that. He's a NES icon:
nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/fran-rob.shtml

[rukifellth]

Bah, Wolf could have simply have been a extra costume for Fox! No need to waste space by adding "him"...

In all honesty, I expected Ridley to be a boss, Pokey too, but when they had the chanse to let some Japanese golden oldies get a chanse, nooooo, they had to screw them up completely...

[spjd]

I really thought the final roster would be bigger... And less clone-filled. But ah well...

[Flip]

I think what upsets everybody the most, and myself included, is that we really expected Melee 2.0. I loved the improved graphics, better gameplay, and new multiplayer modes of Brawl. But, when you get down to it, I am upset that it became a massive adventure game moreso than a fighter. The multiplayer is sure to be tight, but the emphasis fell on the one-player mode (like Sakurai wanted it to) and the game shifted gears towards that. Not to say I won't be playing SSE and love it, but how many times will I go through it before I get tired? Before I start to wonder why it isn't its own game? Personally, I feel like SSE should've been on a separate disc to the rest of the game. Then it would've been even beefier and neither "half-game" would have suffered a loss of anything, really.

What shocks me most is the sheer amount of stuff. Stickers, trophies, stage creator, music... It's incredible. But what also shocks me is that he's created a whole universe rather than a game. You could get lost in all this stuff, never once touching Versus mode really. And that is kind of cool.

That being said, the emphasis of Smash Bros. should always be on the multiplayer and I'm miffed that despite the multiplayer being a massive deal of stuff as well it lacks any real punch like Melee had. Gone are the more than one stage per franchise (unless you're Mario/Zelda/Metroid/Pokemon), and the majority of "secondary stages" are either shared like SSB64 or rehashes from Melee. Hell, half the secret stages are Melee stages. And as far as the secret characters, the only novel ones (it seems) are Snake, Sonic, and ROB. Wolf and Lucario are different enough from Fox and Mewtwo respectively, but they are still at their core clones. Falco and Luigi change a little bit from their originals as well, but Ganondorf and Toon Link are basically unchanged--something I find incredibly disheartening. I'm almost wondering if the reason the roster is the way it is (three "Foxes," Zelda characters all dead-on the same, Mewtwo ditched) is because Sakurai listened a bit too much to the tournament and competitive players. Falco and Fox were considered top-tier, and characters like Ganondorf, Sheik, and Young Link were highly popular. Could that explain the choices he made? Very likely. Because otherwise he nerfed/buffed everybody else to balance them out. Though, I am sad to say, apparently Bowser is still considered the worst character in the game by those who have played it for the past few days now. That's just sucky.

I'm going to get Brawl. I have it reserved. And I will play it all over Spring Break and unlock everything and have crazy custom stage battles against all of you as Pit, Olimar, and Yoshi. And it will be fun as all hell. But it just never met my expectations as of late. I've lost my hype for Dedede, Pit, Meta Knight... some of the newcomers I've known about for two years now, while others are months old. And while some of the features are glamorous, they're old too. I suppose if I never went to the DOJO every day I might be more surprised by all these revelations, but I'm simply not. I've spoiled myself to the point of numbness.

And as far as Ridley, Krystal, Geno, and Takamaru (all four of which I was convinced were going to appear), at least we get an awesome Ridley boss battle and a Krystal cameo in-game ala Slippy and Peppy from Melee. Apparently Geno isn't even mentioned as a sticker, and Takamaru is nowhere to be found as anything thus far. And so goes the ways of Smash. Populars in, nostalgics... we'll be choosy. Oh well. SSB4, Super Smash Bros.: Rumble, anybody?

[Manspeed]

I say we should still hope for my Nintendo Wars Unlimited idea to become a reality someday, preferably with Intellegent Systems at the helm of the project.

[Arcadenik]

Well, right now I am fine with the final roster. There's always SSB4 to hope for.

A few questions.... did R.O.B. ever fight before? Did it fight or do anything in Stack-Up and Gyromite? It doesn't look it is suited for fighting yet Sakurai is the same man who claimed Animal Crossing characters aren't suited for fighting.

[Dances in Undergarments]

fliptroopa said:

[snip]

Um how, exactly, has Brawl ignored its multiplayer aspect? If it was nothing but Melee characters, then you'd have a very valid point, but theres still been more characters - more unique characters - added to Brawl then there were in SSB64. And all of the characters have been tweaked / balanced / given final smashes / etc.

Yes, we probably could have gotten more characters had there been no SSE, but why do we need more characters? Melee has survived as a multiplayer game for ages with a smaller number of characters and a smaller number of stages than what is available in Brawl. SSE, meanwhile, provides a brand new experience. Yes, it could have been put on a seperate disk, but since it uses something close to Brawl's engine anyway, wouldn't we have ended up with the same thing? Or hell, a worse scenario - what if Ridley, Krystal, Geno, Takamaru where playable in the SSE game, but not in the seperate disced SSB version?

Ultimately, SSE probably shaped who got into Brawl - Wolf, ROB, maybe Lucario probably got in for their SSE roles - potentially in doing this, they destroyed the chances for Ridley and the like.... or potentially, nobody was going to fill those spots. We don't know.


Lets face it, though - the only reason we thought a character like Takamaru was likely was because we've been inundated with so many cool characters and features already. Yes, Sakurai probably made a huge mistake by not keeping a Pokemon Trainer or Olimar secret, but whether locked or unlocked, its still a new character. if you're not interested in playing as Metaknight or Pit or something any more, bad luck, sucks to be you.

[TV Eye]

arcadenik said:

Well, right now I am fine with the final roster. There's always SSB4 to hope for.

A few questions.... did R.O.B. ever fight before? Did it fight or do anything in Stack-Up and Gyromite? It doesn't look it is suited for fighting yet Sakurai is the same man who claimed Animal Crossing characters aren't suited for fighting.

R.O.B. never raced before, but that didn't stop him from being a playable character in Mario Kart DS...

[Arcadenik]

Mario Kart DS doesn't really count... I mean, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Toad, Yoshi, and Bowser never raced before Super Mario Kart (SNES) and that didn't stop them from being playable in Super Mario Kart.

When I was supporting Duck Hunt Dog for Brawl, all I have been hearing is that characters have to be "combat-ready" to be playable in Brawl so the dog can't be in Brawl because he never fought before... yet R.O.B. never fought before and he's playable in Brawl.

So when SSB4 comes around, there's no more excuses against the dog since Brawl proved that playable characters can even be four-legged (Ivysaur) or have no prior experience fighting (R.O.B.). And I am not even upset that the dog is unplayable, I am annoyed with the "but they never fought!" argument and I hope that argument died when R.O.B. was confirmed.

[MasterZ]

Captain Falcon. He didn't fight, yet here he is, FALCON PAWNCH and all. Fox never stepped out of his cockpit. And yet here he is, blaster and stuff. What I mean here is that it is easy to implement a character with battle exp., but that does not stop those without from being in. It's all about movesets, and what can you do with the character. DH Dog is REALLY a stretch, as a moveset for him would be very hard. With Fox and Falcon, they had a good deal of creative freedom, aka how they made Captain N and their characters like that. DH Dog could also have that, but it would be a hard task to think of a moveset for him.You have to factor in the aspects of a game, it's content and how they can use that for moves and such.

I still have some cons about the roster, but I'm okay with what they did with the characters who were clones.

[Arcadenik]

I made a detailed moveset for Duck Hunt Dog that suggested he use the ducks, the Zapper, and the clay pigeons for his moves and even use his leash to grab and tether recover... and yet people were telling me he wouldn't work. Why? Because the dog is not "combat-ready" nor have "creative licensing" like Captain Falcon and Fox because they have backstories detailing how they trained in combat. Even Sheik never fought, yes, but since she looks like a ninja so of course it made sense to make her fight like a ninja. That's what I was told, time and time again. Well, I am glad R.O.B. proved that a character doesn't have to have fighting experience or background to be a playable character. So if and when SSB4 is being announced, I will counterargue the "but he never fought before!" using R.O.B. as a prime example. Thank you, R.O.B.!

[Smashchu]

fliptroopa said:

I think what upsets everybody the most, and myself included, is that we really expected Melee 2.0. I loved the improved graphics, better gameplay, and new multiplayer modes of Brawl. But, when you get down to it, I am upset that it became a massive adventure game moreso than a fighter. The multiplayer is sure to be tight, but the emphasis fell on the one-player mode (like Sakurai wanted it to) and the game shifted gears towards that. Not to say I won't be playing SSE and love it, but how many times will I go through it before I get tired? Before I start to wonder why it isn't its own game? Personally, I feel like SSE should've been on a separate disc to the rest of the game. Then it would've been even beefier and neither "half-game" would have suffered a loss of anything, really.

What shocks me most is the sheer amount of stuff. Stickers, trophies, stage creator, music... It's incredible. But what also shocks me is that he's created a whole universe rather than a game. You could get lost in all this stuff, never once touching Versus mode really. And that is kind of cool.

That being said, the emphasis of Smash Bros. should always be on the multiplayer and I'm miffed that despite the multiplayer being a massive deal of stuff as well it lacks any real punch like Melee had. Gone are the more than one stage per franchise (unless you're Mario/Zelda/Metroid/Pokemon), and the majority of "secondary stages" are either shared like SSB64 or rehashes from Melee. Hell, half the secret stages are Melee stages. And as far as the secret characters, the only novel ones (it seems) are Snake, Sonic, and ROB. Wolf and Lucario are different enough from Fox and Mewtwo respectively, but they are still at their core clones. Falco and Luigi change a little bit from their originals as well, but Ganondorf and Toon Link are basically unchanged--something I find incredibly disheartening. I'm almost wondering if the reason the roster is the way it is (three "Foxes," Zelda characters all dead-on the same, Mewtwo ditched) is because Sakurai listened a bit too much to the tournament and competitive players. Falco and Fox were considered top-tier, and characters like Ganondorf, Sheik, and Young Link were highly popular. Could that explain the choices he made? Very likely. Because otherwise he nerfed/buffed everybody else to balance them out. Though, I am sad to say, apparently Bowser is still considered the worst character in the game by those who have played it for the past few days now. That's just sucky.

I disagree.

I don't think the idea of multiplayer ever left Smash Bros. Look at the SSE which you say detracted from multiplayer. Isn't there co-op built right into it, for every level. While Sakurai added a lot more single player elements, he has also made most of them co-op ready (and verses in the case of HRC). In fact, Classic and maybe All-Stars are the only modes that are strikly single player only (actual game modes). He has made most of these modes Multiplyer ready. Heck, there are even event matches just for 2 players.

The there is also the Wifi aspect. Now, you can be connected to people all over the world and play with them. Heck, if they just added that and rehashed Melee (with more stuff) then we'd still be ecstatic. Heck, two people can even jump on one Wii and play teams. There is so much co-op in this game, it isn't even funny.

But it can't be blamed for adding more single player. What was the major criticisms of Melee? No single player (or lack of). Now, Sakurai is correcting the franchises biggest flaw, and we want to complain.

Hype. Has corrupted us. It has made us expect so much. What we have is great, and rivals many other games, and stomps even those. We have a solid game we will play for 6years+

[Flip]

In the end, my only serious gripes are that the roster still feels lacking. It's an incredible roster, but it doesn't have the PUNCH I expected. Melee was the same way, because at that time I was convinced Pit, Wario, and Meta Knight were going to appear. They didn't. This time, I finally got them. But all the characters I expected to appear on top did not. So... here goes one for SSB4?

It's really sad that this is likely the last one. Nintendo will rehash it for years to come, but Sakurai cleans his hands of the franchise after this. Most certainly.

[Smashchu]

fliptroopa said:

It's really sad that this is likely the last one. Nintendo will rehash it for years to come, but Sakurai cleans his hands of the franchise after this. Most certainly.

Actually, MELEE was his last one. He got dragged into this. And with the foot-in-the-door phenomenon, it's likely he'll never leave this franchise.