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Post by kirbychu on Feb 18, 2009 18:35:14 GMT -5
@ Kirbychu: Because he's just another idiot hedgehog who really seems tacked on to me. So your beef with him is that he's a hedgehog? That's pretty strange. Do you think being, say, a tiger would make him a better character? All of Silver's roles have been pivotal, he's never been tacked-on. If you want to see a tacked-on character, the series has a perfect example - Knuckles. He hasn't served an actual purpose since Sonic Heroes, and is always shoved in just 'cause. He's become the very definition of a tacked-on character. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 18, 2009 18:54:39 GMT -5
My beef with him is that he is another Sonic rival who was created as a hedgehog for that very purpose. It's the same thing that annoys me about Shadow, except to a greater degree because it's a rehash of an already rehashed character.
Knuckles may be a tack-on now but he did start up well. Silver started out looking like a tack-on, and no matter how pivotal his role is I can't get over the fact that they could very well have done the same thing without him.
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 18, 2009 18:56:10 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the reason Knuckles was designed as an echidna was because they thought another hedgehog would be redundant, so that answers that question.
While he may not have been tacked on plotwise in Sonic Rivals 2, did they really have any reason to use him again after Sonic 2006 happened and un-happened? It seemed pretty pointless to me.
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 18, 2009 19:04:45 GMT -5
Silver was originally designed as a mink. He was turned into a hedgehog to better help the flow of the story where his meeting with Amy was concerned, and to create more parallels between the three main characters. The entire theme of the game is past, present and future. So we have the hedgehog who clings to the past, the hedgehog who lives for the present, and the hedgehog who fights for the future. I thought it was a brilliant concept personally, and Silver only stuck around afterwards because he proved popular. And, y'know... only two of Sonic's many rivals are hedgehogs. What about the cat? or the hawk? Or the echidna? And Man-Frog, Knuckles wasn't designed to be an Echidna because another Hedgehog was redundant. He was designed to be an obscure animal because he's supposed to be the last of his kind. That plot point wouldn't work so well if the main character happened to be the same species, would it?  |
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 18, 2009 19:18:20 GMT -5
It's too bad that the supposedly brilliant plot you described there was marred by the worst writing and acting I've ever seen in a video game. I doubt they were that competent. Shadow's clearly in in just because he's Shadow. Did they really expect us to believe that Amy would confuse Silver for Sonic just because he's a hedgehog? Geez....
I distinctly remember reading some official Sega material where they stated that they made Knuckles an echidna just because they didn't want to take the easy way out and make him a hedgehog. If they wanted him to just be the last of his kind, they'd have used any old endangered animal. An echidna is a fellow quilled animal, perfect to stand in as a rival for a hedgehog. Certainly makes more sense than the cat or the hawk (both of which suck if you ask me).
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 18, 2009 19:33:58 GMT -5
Oh gross, you're going on about that past-present-future thing. Look, Silver's being a parallel to Sonic is a rehash. He plays the exact same role as Shadow who played he exact same role as Metal Sonic: A hedgehog who wants to kill Sonic. The meeting Amy part is just as unnecessary as Silver's presence.
Two? What are you smoking? You have Shadow, Metal Sonic, and Silver, compared to Knuckles the Echidna, Jet the Hawk, Nack the Weasel, and Blaze the Cat. It's 3 of 7, the most number of same-species rivals by far. And yes, that's right, I said Metal Sonic. Because he's a robot designed after a hedgehog, Sonic no less. Not to mention his rivals from the comic series.
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 18, 2009 19:40:45 GMT -5
Okay, Man-frog, since you're taking that condescending tone with me, and have succeeded in pissing me off, I'm going to take the exact same tone right back.
I'll give you the acting, but the writing in Sonic 2006 was what made the game worth seeing through until the end. In fact, it was the only thing that made it worth seeing through. If you weren't smart enough to get all the underlying stuff in it, that's your problem.
Shadow is in there because he's Shadow. Just like Eggman is in there because he is Eggman and Tails is in there because he is Tails. What's your point? Shadow is the second most popular character in the series, and doesn't appear that often for how popular he is.
Amy mistaking Silver for Sonic? That's called a running gag. It's happened with Metal Sonic, Shadow, Silver, and then as a reverse-gag when she "mistook" the Werehog for Sonic.
I'm gonna have to ask for a source on the Knuckles thing, because I've never heard that. From what I heard, his species was decided through focus groups.
Blaze is the second most popular female in the series, and Jet is easily my favourite of Sonic's rivals, and is one of the most characterized characters there. They might suck if I ask you, but hey, I didn't. Doesn't that suck.
EDIT: Y'know what? I've had it. Fuck you guys. When you learn to talk to someone who disagrees with your opinion without acting childish, I'll talk to you.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 18, 2009 19:47:45 GMT -5
That's how you see it? I see it as actually trying to get you to make a valid point for Silver. I've yet to see one.
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Post by kirbychu on Feb 18, 2009 19:55:17 GMT -5
That's how you see it? I see it as actually trying to get you to make a valid point for Silver. I've yet to see one. Okay. You don't see my points as valid? I don't see your counter-points as valid. You're just repeating that you don't like him because he is a hedgehog and a rival in an increasingly condescending and insulting way. Personally, I don't think the species has any bearing on anything, and... what, Sonic can never have anyone new to fight? It should just be Metal Sonic every game? Really? Metal Sonic and Shadow were out to kill Sonic. Neither of them were tricked into it. Neither of them thought they were doing the right thing. Neither of them were trying to save the world. But honestly? I think you just don't see my points as valid because you don't agree. Y'know, there was a time when opinion was respected here. It was a glorious time. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 18, 2009 20:13:59 GMT -5
And short-lived, it seems, since you seem insistant on making me like Silver. Your points aren't valid because they're all the same point as each other and they're all the same points I'm making, just put positively.
Look, the continuing drive of adding new rivals to Sonic is fine. I just find that they're getting ridiculous with it. After Shadow the Hedgehog I wanted a break. I wanted to see the classic Sonic-Eggman set with a simple plot and few if any friends. What I've always liked about the Mario series is that, when you're playing the main series, you don't get ridiculous amounts of new characters. You get Mario, you get Bowser, you get Peach. And sometimes Luigi. It's also what I liked about the old Sonic games. But after a while, Sonic started adding characters in every game, and these characters would go on to new games, and these new games would feature more characters, and it just repeated itself. I might have liked Silver if he weren't just another rehash of a worn-out plot device. He's just another hedgehog, and as just another hedgehog he is the same basic plot device as Shadow and Metal Sonic: The hedgehog rival who wants Sonic dead. It's getting old fast, and I would like to see a new Sonic game that doesn't feature all these characters AND MORE. Sonic the Hedgehog is a dying series and every attempt to revitalize the series has made me cringe. Maybe I am being a bit harsh in my hatred of Silver. But you know what? I don't HAVE to like him. If I don't want to like Silver, I won't. You can't FORCE me to like him. And really, the way you're going on about him, you sound like a fan-boy. I hate Silver. That's all there is to it. I hate Silver, I hate Big, and I hate Shadow. Deal with it.
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 18, 2009 20:23:56 GMT -5
I'll give you the acting, but the writing in Sonic 2006 was what made the game worth seeing through until the end. In fact, it was the only thing that made it worth seeing through. If you weren't smart enough to get all the underlying stuff in it, that's your problem.
It's Sonic 2006, not fucking Citizen Kane. Nobody plays through a Sonic game to see some sort of subtext or shit like that. Fry was right about overplotting being the downfall of the Sonic series, and I find it alarming that a guy as intelligent as yourself would actually defend something as idiotic and poorly produced as this game's plot. If it weren't as bad as I and several others made it out to be, why is it so unanimously hated across the gaming landscape?
Shadow is in there because he's Shadow. Just like Eggman is in there because he is Eggman and Tails is in there because he is Tails. What's your point? Shadow is the second most popular character in the series, and doesn't appear that often for how popular he is.
That doesn't excuse how that he managed to get his own game and his established character butchered in the process. After that little train wreck, he's worthless as far as I'm concerned.
Amy mistaking Silver for Sonic? That's called a running gag. It's happened with Metal Sonic, Shadow, Silver, and then as a reverse-gag when she "mistook" the Werehog for Sonic.
It's the most nonsensical running gag ever. At least Metal Sonic and Shadow look enough like Sonic. Silver looks like some DevianTARTlet's third rate fancharacter.
I'm gonna have to ask for a source on the Knuckles thing, because I've never heard that. From what I heard, his species was decided through focus groups.
The focus groups are what determined that he'd be red and have the Nike swish on his chest, not his species. That's about all I know.
Blaze is the second most popular female in the series, and Jet is easily my favourite of Sonic's rivals, and is one of the most characterized characters there. They might suck if I ask you, but hey, I didn't. Doesn't that suck.
I don't care how popular Blaze is. I think she's a shittily designed character with a shittily written personality and shittily defined powers. Jet is as obnoxious as all fuck. I'm allowed to think this. What's your problem?
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Post by TV Eye on Feb 18, 2009 20:38:48 GMT -5
Jesus Christ, all this bitching about Sonic? What is wrong with you people?
As a neutral figure who's never played Sonic '06, I can easily say that no one here has given me a reason to like or dislike Silver.
And I like Blaze. She is like a female Knuckles, personality wise, except she isn't as easily fooled by Eggman. She's also one of the few respected Sonic characters (as opposed to, say, Amy or Big).
So, people. Stop acting like children and grow up. Have an intelligent and kind debate. Tone down the anger a bit.
God, I sound like a ringer in here.
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Post by Koopaul on Feb 18, 2009 20:42:45 GMT -5
It's not that Sonic 06's plot sucked. It was how it was put together. With the overacting and obnoxious scenes, that's what ruined it. If there's something I learned its that a story can be good or bad depending on who's handling it.
Let's look at Charlie and the Chocolate Factory movies.
The first movie was a classic to behold, loved by all. Then Tim Burton had a go at it... It sucked.
Same plot, but handled in a different direction.
I'm sure if they rewrote the plot, took away the melodrama, and rehashed certain things, Sonic 06's story would be gold!
Say, why does every game discussion involving Sonic have to bring us back to a Sonic 06 argument?
EDIT: TVEye beat me to it.
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Post by Manspeed on Feb 18, 2009 22:05:57 GMT -5
...Tim Burton's Charlie and the Chocolate Factory ruled.  ...and, the reason every Sonic discussion on here harkens back to Sonic '06 is because it's one of the factors that led to most people losing respect for the Sonic series, which Kirbychu can't seem to tolerate. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Feb 18, 2009 22:44:26 GMT -5
I disagree, Depp didn't do Wonka justice, and I'd have to stick with Wilder.
Also, I was already a bit leery of the series by the time Sonic '06 came out. It was Sonic '06 that dropped it to zero, but I'd been skeptical of the series since Shadow brought guns to the series.
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