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Post by Leon on Jul 1, 2015 19:13:44 GMT -5
Literally every SF character can be described in one word. Fox is "the hero", Wolf is "the rival", Falco is "the hotshot", etc. We don't ask for more from any of those characters because we don't need more, this is first and foremost a shooter and not an RPG which demands a level of character depth.
Considering that SF0 is a reboot, this is the opportune time to use Krystal because you can throw off all that awful Rare baggage and make her a genuine member of the team.
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Post by Manspeed on Jul 1, 2015 21:24:26 GMT -5
Krystal wasn't even conceived as a Star Fox character. She was a leftover from Dinosaur Planet. The hell do you have against Rare?
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 2, 2015 12:51:55 GMT -5
Literally every SF character can be described in one word. Fox is "the hero", Wolf is "the rival", Falco is "the hotshot", etc. We don't ask for more from any of those characters because we don't need more, this is first and foremost a shooter and not an RPG which demands a level of character depth. Yes, you can describe anything with one word. ANYTHING. But Krystal can only be described as "the girl". There isn't anything else to say about her. There's plenty more to say about the rest of the team. Even one shot characters like Amanda and Dash have had more depth. But this is totally the fault of the writers. Krystal HAD depth in Adventures, but it was removed to make her fit a trope she wasn't designed for. Like I said, she should've been kept on as an occasional ally, not a permanent team member. |
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Post by Leon on Jul 2, 2015 17:46:59 GMT -5
Tell me all about Falco's depth, or Wolf, or even Amanda.
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Post by Koopaul on Jul 2, 2015 22:52:11 GMT -5
Krystal has a huge fanbase. Even if I'm not a fan, I sympathize with them. It'd be like them getting rid of Waluigi or something. I like Waluigi!
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Post by Manspeed on Jul 3, 2015 5:33:10 GMT -5
Not really a fair comparison considering Waluigi is practically known for never appearing in regular Mario games.  |
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 3, 2015 6:25:38 GMT -5
Tell me all about Falco's depth, or Wolf, or even Amanda. Serious with this? I'll give you Amanda, I thought there was more to her than just being Slippy's girlfriend, but it looks like I was wrong. But Falco has enough material there that he was able to carry a full comic exploring elements of his history. I'd say he has the most depth of any of the Star Fox characters, honestly. Wolf's history with Fox's dad and the weird enemy-mentor relationship Fox has with him gives him plenty of depth too. Actually I'd say all of the Star Wolf members have more depth than Krystal except for Leon. It's a problem when your rival characters have more work put into them than one of your main characters. I never meant Krystal should be taken out entirely, I'd be happy for her to still be in the game. I just think it was a mistake to ever put her on the main Star Fox team, she would've worked better as a character like Katt or Bill. Maybe if she goes back to that we can see more of the feisty, independent adventurer from Adventures and less of the demure, fawning love interest from Assault. |
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Post by Manspeed on Jul 3, 2015 11:32:34 GMT -5
This entire discussion is making me wish Dinosaur Planet stayed as-is.  |
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Post by Leon on Jul 3, 2015 23:26:41 GMT -5
Tell me all about Falco's depth, or Wolf, or even Amanda. Serious with this? I'll give you Amanda, I thought there was more to her than just being Slippy's girlfriend, but it looks like I was wrong. But Falco has enough material there that he was able to carry a full comic exploring elements of his history. I'd say he has the most depth of any of the Star Fox characters, honestly. Wolf's history with Fox's dad and the weird enemy-mentor relationship Fox has with him gives him plenty of depth too. Actually I'd say all of the Star Wolf members have more depth than Krystal except for Leon. It's a problem when your rival characters have more work put into them than one of your main characters. You're going to use a non-canon manga to try and say that Falco has depth? Let's just stick with the games. In the games all we learn about Falco is that he was part of a gang, and was an acquaintance of Katt. That's literally all we ever learn about him in 22 years of Star Fox games. We don't know how he ended up meeting Fox and joining the team, nor do we ever learn his motivations. With regards to Wolf, we never learn a single thing about his alleged relationship with James. The only reference he makes to James is when says, "You'll be seeing you dad soon, Fox!". After that he never mentions or makes reference to James at all. We never learn why he creates Star Wolf, or why he's so antagonistic towards Star Fox. Star Fox Adventures does tell us very little about Krystal. All we really learn is that she was flying a ship through the Lylat System after the death of her parents when she heard the distress signal from Sauria. Because she has a kind heart she decides to go to the planet to help the locals. It's unfortunate the we don't learn more about her, but that really is just par for the course with this franchise. I do agree that Krystal should have a more independent spirit, but I don't believe that is mutually exclusive from being a team member. Krystal is an orphan who took Star Fox as her surrogate family, let her be the team member who acts a bit rashly, but always in the interest of protecting her new family. |
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 4, 2015 6:11:55 GMT -5
What makes you think the Falco manga isn't canon? It was only ever officially released through the official website for Star Fox Adventures, so Nintendo obviously consider it canon. And it was all based on things that were already established.
If you're only relying on in-game dialogue, yeah, we don't really know a lot about those characters. But these are 90s games, they were released with a LOT of supporting material that gives insight into this stuff. That's how we knew all about Beltino Toad almost ten years before he was ever mentioned in-game, for example. And obviously, since he did eventually appear in a game, that stuff is considered canon.
So we don't just know that Falco was part of a gang and that he knows Katt, we know that he was born in 19 BLW, lived on Zoness, was enrolled in the Cornerian Flight Academy sometime before Fox and Slippy joined, but dropped out, and led a gang called the Hot Rodders for a few years before being offered a job on the Star Fox team. That's definitely much less than we know about Fox, Slippy or Peppy, sure, but Falco was supposed to be the mysterious one, which is what made him a fan favourite. Now we know much less about Krystal, but there's also no intrigue about her.
Same goes with Wolf. He only makes that one mention of Fox's dad in-game, but from the game's supporting materials we know that he and James had a long rivalry and that Fox believes Wolf was involved in James' disappearance.
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Post by Leon on Jul 4, 2015 17:12:11 GMT -5
Nintendo has manga commissioned for their franchises all the time, as I write this there is literally a new Zelda manga being created by Akira Himekawa. Nobody ever argues that those works are part of their franchise canon, so I can't accept that an obscure Japan only manga, which was never referenced in another game, is a genuine part of the SF lore. A rogue Cornerian captain cloning Andross is a pretty big deal, no?
As for the other supplemental materials, those are so obscure, they might as well be fan fiction. For a player who starts with SF643D, that information is literally no where to be found. The manual includes no such information, and the only info we get about the characters is what is stated in game. Even when you include that lore, it's still very vague and doesn't tell us anything of substance.
This discussion has gotten me thinking however. What if when you perform certain objectives in the story, you could unlock special sidequests that tell us more about the characters. You could have a mission where Falco and Katt have to deal with their former gang who have now become full fledged space pirates. Likewise you could have a mission that gives closure to Krystal and Cerinia.
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 4, 2015 17:59:46 GMT -5
I think the difference with the Zelda manga is that those are books created and sold separately from the games which clearly contradict them in many places. Nintendo didn't commission them, Himekawa licensed them. The Falco manga was created by Nintendo and presented for free as part of the game's release material. So there's no reason to think it isn't canon. It's actually probably more canon than the original Star Fox game at this point.
And it really doesn't matter if that information is obscure, the fact that it was still being referenced as late as Command means it's still considered canon. It's also not that hard to find, I was able to find it again to check this stuff. It's all on the internet. You can't write off the lore just because you haven't read it. The point is, it shows how much work is put into writing those characters, and the lack of any such detail on Krystal shows how much the writers weren't bothered about making her interesting. But this isn't just a problem for Krystal, it seems that the only post-64 characters who had much thought put into their backstories were Lucy and Dash.
I was actually thinking about that earlier... an open-world Star Fox game, where the Great Fox serves as your hub and you can take on various missions all across the Lylat System would be really cool. I think the series will probably just continue being linear though.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Jul 5, 2015 19:10:42 GMT -5
What if when you perform certain objectives in the story, you could unlock special sidequests that tell us more about the characters. You could have a mission where Falco and Katt have to deal with their former gang who have now become full fledged space pirates. Likewise you could have a mission that gives closure to Krystal and Cerinia. You're actually getting your hopes up for this? Even though it's already apparent that this game is trying to be everything that Star Fox 64 was? |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Jul 5, 2015 19:26:06 GMT -5
I'd like to weigh in on the Krystal debate here, despite the fact that I really don't give two shits about Star Fox as a franchise, because we're talking about what seems to be a remake of Star Fox 64.
If Nintendo made a remake of Super Mario World without Rosalina, what would our reaction be? How about Ocarina of Time without Groose? Krystal wasn't in Star Fox 64. Unless Nintendo's rebooting the franchise and intends to remove her from this point on, there should be no cause for alarm: It wasn't her game in the first place.
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Post by kirbychu on Jul 5, 2015 20:31:59 GMT -5
It's definitely not a remake of Star Fox 64. The only thing we've seen that looked like that was the Corneria stage, everything else has been totally new. Miyamoto has said it's not a remake, sequel or prequel, so it seems the only option left is that he's rebooting it. Which isn't surprising, since that's what he's done with every Star Fox game he's made so far.
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