Lots of people fight and debate about what order the Zelda games take place but not much is ever discussed about what happened BEFORE them. That's right, before Ocarina of Time. Obviously there is much lore about the creation of Hyrule, the wars that took place, the alliances and such. Here's where we discuss all that. If you don't know what I'm talking about let me explain a few things...
There was a Hyrulian Civil War that is assumed to be about fighting over the Sacred Realm. Either way we all know that because of this Link's mother was killed and he was adopted by the Great Deku Tree yadda yadda...
Stuff like that. Also the Sheikah. They were most prominent before the events of OoT. It is assumed that they mostly died out during the war protecting the Royal Family. I strongly believe this too, the Shadow Temple (which was built by the Sheikah) has a great connection to that war. There's a message that can be read in there...
Shadow Temple... Here is gathered Hyrule's bloody history of greed and hatred...
The Oocca have a lot to do with the history of Hyrule presumably the earliest race made by the Goddesses and had a strong connection with the above mentioned Sheikah since their Sky Book was given to that tribe.
There are other little things like the legend of the Megaton Hammer, Kaepora Gaebora, and the construction of the Master Sword.
Well, Kaepora may be Raru (Sp?), but we've been over that before.
The Master Sword come out of the first war fro the Sacred Realm- whenever that was- and the Megaton Hammer... Well, that was just the Gorons fighting Volvagia. Not much mystery in that one aside from who the original hero was, and what their relation to Darunia was. Might've been explained in Ocarina- it's been several years since I played it.
Also, no. The first Zelda is one of uncertain placement, but we know that Ocarina IS first.
Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 29, 2009 22:25:38 GMT -5
Now, I'm not saying anything any way here, but...
Apparently, there's a theory on the origin of Termina's fate based on the Stone Tower of Ikana, one that I surprisingly believe, provided I rarely believe in these sorts of theories, especially since I rarely believe in theories that have to do with the subject matter. This being said, the original version had a significant flaw that would negate the necessity of the game itself, and so at one point in the following paragraph, I branch off into my own. You'll know when. Note that I do not mention the Fierce Diety Mask, as its use is optional, its legends are not particularly necessary to this story.
This theory revolves around phallic imagery and sexual innuendos around Ikana Canyon. To sum it up, this guy posits that the ancient Terminians blasphemed against the Goddesses, but our theories differ in the purpose of this blasphemy. His theory implies the Giants were the cause of the blasphemy, while mine implicates a cult of Majora in the Ikana region. This blasphemy was sexual in nature, for proof, I point out that, when you fire a light arrow at the red mark outside of the Tower Dungeon but in the tower climb, you can see where the tongue of the platform blocks end (the ones that look like little gnome creatures with long tongues,) between the feet over the naked creature's genitals. On the tip of the tongue is an image of the Triforce, the sacred triangle of the Goddesses. Of further note is phallic imagery which I might not have noticed in my run-through of MM if it weren't for those genital-covering tongues, though they are pretty distinctly penile in structure.
Now, it doesn't take a religion major to determine how pissed that'd get any god or goddess, and so they cursed Majora by transforming him into a mask and cursing his followers so that they would be forced to live a half-life until they found true peace on earth, the end result being the land of Ikana and all of its inhabitants. (In the original theory, they simply doomed the planet, but if that was the entirety of their vengence the game itself wouldn't have occurred, since Link serves the Goddesses, making his defeat of Majora against the Goddesses, and so from this point, my theory branches from the original.)
Majora, enraged at his condition, plotted the destruction of their followers, which would suddenly include a vast majority of Termina (being that the punishment would certainly be noted. Also note that Majora would naturally have started in Termina, but have been capable of action on a universal scale, as evidenced by the fact that the Skull Kid is capable of being in both Hyrule and Termina and that Link managed to follow him from one realm to the other.)
As the millenia passed, Majora continued to exist, unable to carry out his plan, and eventually his sanity snapped. Eventually, the Happy Mask Salesman found Majora. Now, I point you to the fact that HMS knows of Majora's dark history, implying HMS to be of particular wisdom. We know little of Salesman training, but it's possible that HMS learned of Majora's Mask through rumor, through his training as a Salesman, or through other possible means, perhaps, then, HMS may be like Gandalf, recognizing the power through mysticism, or perhaps like Indiana Jones, through legend and rumor. Either way, when he discovered the mask, he knew to keep it out of the wrong hands. But the Skull Kid robbed him and stole the mask, not knowing the power. We know the Skull Kid to enjoy masks, and so he'd have put it on, allowing the mask to take over his body.
Majora's back, ladies and gentlemen, so something must be done. The Goddesses would have known the implications of his return, especially after his further, possibly forced recruitment of the Temple Guardians (the bosses,) and so the Goddesses inspired Link, their chosen hero, to search for Navi and put him on a collision course with the possessed Skull Kid, thereby sending him to Termina to bring redemption to its people, return the Guardians to the light, and finally defeat Majora. The rest is history.
Paragraph breaks, dude! I can't read that massive block of text!
Ocarina is the first game in the in-series timeline, unless you hold that Minish Cap takes place first (I don't believe this particular theory, as it seems like a totally unnecessary break from the "official" line - and I really can't see any reason why it's supposed to be first).
What we know about the events pre-OoT is pretty much laid out in-game. The other games don't really refer back to that time.
The Temple of Time was supposedly built by the Sages to protect the Sacred Realm where the Triforce was hidden, so we can assume that there were sages before those that appeared in OoT. Perhaps they all died, leaving an ageing Rauru. Perhaps they were sacrificed or died during the war, but we don't know that...
But we do know that Sages are constantly replaced as older sages die, as seen by the awakened Sages and their ghostly forebears that appear in The Wind Waker.
Regardless, I don't think there's any mysteries here. The game pretty much spells out all we know.
Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 30, 2009 13:48:05 GMT -5
If I may ask for some form of evidence? Anyone can propose a hypothesis, but without much evidence, that's all it's going to be. I hate to come down on your circular timeline like this, but it's a valid point: A timeline theory is an idea of the timeline based on the mythos of the series. It's not really a theory if you don't support it with evidence, it's just a possibility. But in the video gaming world, ANYTHING is in the realm of possibility, case in point, the Oocca. How in HELL does that species exist? And why does it particularly matter?
Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 30, 2009 14:50:04 GMT -5
Interesting concept, but there is a timeline, it's unquestionable. If we accept the fact that Ganon was originally the dark wizard Ganondorf (which is canon,) we're thrust into various possible timelines, all of which put Ocarina of Time in the very beginning, when he was a meer Gerudo, albeit their king. Much of the mythos of later games and even the mythos of the earlier LttP stems from Ocarina. The order from then on is debatable, in spite of the fact that it's known through interviews and an amount of logic that there are two timelines, the Deluge, an event taking place after Adult Link, and the Imprisonment, an event taking place after Young Link, as there are more games than OoT, WW, and TP (a good trio to use for this example, as all are Hyrulean games and are evidential of a two-pronged timeline.) The only real x-factors are the four games released prior to Ocarina of Time, the Four Swords subseries, and Oracle (a game released similarly to Pokemon, so I count it as one game, much as I count seperate Pokemon games by generation, not by version, including the version 3.) We really only have the following...
Deluge - Ocarina of Time > Wind Waker > Phantom Hourglass > Spirit Tracks Imprisonment - Ocarina of Time > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess
6 games. All other games must be positioned relative to those games, with Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask being the first, as logic and canon dictate they ARE the first. I could go further, but I'd like to graph it first, and it'd be wisest to discuss it elsewhere, since this thread is really the mythos PRIOR TO Ocarina of Time (or according to your theory, prior to the first cycle started.)
Post by Hiker of Games on Nov 30, 2009 16:27:01 GMT -5
Although its off-topic, an interesting idea I've heard is that the timeline takes place as you lay it out, but with the added idea that the 2D Zelda games take place in their own self-contained continuity that have nothing to do with the 3D games, save for sharing the same elements. Its an idea I personally subscribe to myself.
In any case, I'm not going to expend a whole lot of effort rationalizing a joke theory. At least not here with people I consider to be intelligent. Elsewhere though...
Ganondorf was capable of casting dark magic before he laid his hands on the Triforce, as evidenced by the scene before Link opens the Temple of Time outside of Hyrule Castle Town (preceded by Link's precognitive dream at the very start of the game).
Of course, it just knocks Link over - was this because Ganondorf's magic was weak before acquiring the Triforce or Power, or was it because he needed Link to open the Temple of Time and the gateway to the Sacred Realm, as he was unable to do so?
One question: There's a popular view that the war preceding the game was instigated by Ganondorf to weaken each of the races of Hyrule (presumably to make stealing the keys to the Temple easier, and to ease his ability to conquer the world). Where did this view originate? I don't recall it ever mentioned so explicitly in the game (though that may be my faulty memory) and I haven't read any official documentation where this is laid out.
nocturnal YL: I have a tendency to dislike a game because it's popular, or at least, I give popular games a harsher, more critical look.
Apr 12, 2022 15:07:04 GMT -5
Nester the Lark: ^ I think I do something similar in that I tend to favor less popular things. It's not something I do intentionally or even consciously; I think it's just part of my personality.
Apr 14, 2022 8:56:37 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: Official pairings in games sometimes surprise me. Like <spoiler> in BLUE REFLECTION 2. Or Astrid and Makalov in Fire Emblem 10 which is less shocking but still unexpected. For a non-romantic example, Meta Knight and Dedede in KF2 work so well together.
Apr 16, 2022 8:49:20 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: BLUE REFLECTION: Second Light is a… shocking experience. I'm at the start of Chapter 9 (so 3 more to go), and considering the side quests and maxing out character Talent Points, I'm about 70% done.
Apr 18, 2022 12:11:29 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: I'll say this: I'm glad it's not a popular game. I don't need to worry about spoilers. Is it worth playing? Yes for story, no for other elements. An overall huge yes for me, because I really like the story so far.
Apr 18, 2022 12:15:00 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: Almost anything I can say is spoiler, and I really think it's best to jump into it blind, not even reading the official website. I'll probably write a review on it, so stay tuned.
Apr 18, 2022 12:17:07 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: I was done with BLUE REFLECTION: Second Light… two days ago, actually. It's quite difficult to put my thoughts in words, but at the same time, it's similar to what others would say about the game.
Apr 23, 2022 9:07:18 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: My old computer died, on the same day I got my new one. The timing isn't exactly a coincidence, as it started showing symptoms a long time ago. I got very lucky that I did my backup and bought the new PC today. (Game review about 1/3 done, by the way)
Apr 24, 2022 15:10:51 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: Now I'm not sure if I should post the review as is. I basically typed out the whole story, but that's exactly what I don't want potential players to read.
Apr 25, 2022 10:39:45 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: Writing too little would make it difficult to appreciate why is the story good, but writing everything out would defeat the point. Umm…
Apr 25, 2022 10:40:25 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: And it's done! I decided to cut most of the story and only leave in a few examples. The cut part is even longer than the full review, but if anyone wants to know the story they should play the actual game or at least watch videos of it.
Apr 25, 2022 13:57:21 GMT -5
Nester the Lark: I like that we keep posting cameos, even though Fry has no intention of ever updating the site again. But I guess the forum is still an archive.
May 11, 2022 8:30:44 GMT -5
Shrikeswind: Looks like it's been a minute since TV Eye's been here, so I'll go post that in the thread as well. It looks like he made it to around the halfway mark, but now it's been 4 years.
May 14, 2022 0:46:16 GMT -5
Shrikeswind: I was thinking about it because the thumbnail for JRose11's Red/Blue Dugtrio-only run reminded me of Hidden Depths' Dugtrio.
May 14, 2022 0:52:06 GMT -5
nocturnal YL: Finally starting to see some good equipment made out of my post-game item optimisation in Atelier Sophie 2. I don't plan to write a review now as I don't feel a burning need to unlike BLUE REFLECTION: Second Light; I'll wait until my next game's done.
May 19, 2022 14:09:54 GMT -5