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Post by kirbychu on Dec 7, 2009 6:29:18 GMT -5
Once you start talking about personality disorders and comparing Ganondorf's actions to the Christian church, you've kind of gone way outside the realms of a Miyamoto game and strayed into Square Enix territory.  Ganondorf is the bad guy. Like Bowser and Wario, he knows he is the bad guy. He's never even pretended that what he's doing is for any kind of greater good. He's selfish, greedy and power-hungry. Those are his motives. He knows he's evil. And I offer this piece of evidence: a quote from Ganondorf himself in OoT. "The Great Evil King Ganondorf... beaten by this kid?! " |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 7, 2009 15:35:53 GMT -5
Once you start talking about personality disorders and comparing Ganondorf's actions to the Christian church, you've kind of gone way outside the realms of a Miyamoto game and strayed into Square Enix territory. A simple psychoanalysis isn't cutting into Square-land. Square Enix can make a villain fit a psychological profile, but they rarely manage to make the villain's personality seem threatening in tangent with the profile. Ganondorf's got the psychological profile of Hannibal Lector. The only difference is that he's (debatably) not a cannibal (ask me how it's debatable.) What makes him a good villain? He's also got the right personality. He's not Sephiroth, Seph's too much of a pansy. Ganondorf's got balls. Ganondorf plays with his food. Sephiroth tries to eat it before it goes cold. And I use Seph because of the fact that every Square villain since Seph has either been an adaptation or a parody of his personality. Likewise, it's not really that much of a stretch to compare the actions of Ganondorf to historical actions taken by Christian people. Give an example: Feeding the Gorons to Volvagia. Sounds like the Holocaust. Another? What did Ganondorf do to Nabooru that right wing Christianity isn't trying to do to the world? Brainwashing is beating beliefs out of someone's head so they might believe something else (even Koume & Kotake had mentioned the need for multiple washings before Link came along, implying resistance to even their presumably magical brainwashing.) That's what the religious right is trying to do to the older folks. (I can't count the number of times someone's told me all pissy that I'm wrong because it doesn't say so in the Bible, and I read the damn thing, guaranteed more than they do.) And I'm offering a possible deviation from that, where he doesn't think he's evil. I've never said he doesn't explicitly (Wind Waker does point to a possible gray area, but the chief word there is "Possible," and again, this is based on fuzzy knowledge, having never played it myself.) I was simply cutting into that gray. He actually says "Great Evil King?" That's interesting. I never noticed it. Glad I'm replaying it. |
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 7, 2009 18:56:01 GMT -5
I think maybe you're reading into things just a tad too much, Shrike. |
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 7, 2009 20:41:58 GMT -5
Ganondorf is the bad guy. Like Bowser and Wario, he knows he is the bad guy. He's never even pretended that what he's doing is for any kind of greater good. He's selfish, greedy and power-hungry. Those are his motives. He knows he's evil. That's funny because in WW he was portrayed in a different light. He sorta gave his reasons for being evil, that he hated the Gods for blessing the land of Hyrule and making his land a barren death trap. www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgrlntBAQzsHe also felt the gods were crueler than he was... Before you fight Puppet Ganon he says: |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 7, 2009 21:22:42 GMT -5
I think maybe you're reading into things just a tad too much, Shrike. I may have mentioned that possibility. =P |
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 8, 2009 2:38:27 GMT -5
That's funny because in WW he was portrayed in a different light. He sorta gave his reasons for being evil, that he hated the Gods for blessing the land of Hyrule and making his land a barren death trap. That's not how I remember it... I don't have time to watch the video right now, but I remember him saying that about the WIND, not the Gods. He also felt the gods were crueler than he was... Before you fight Puppet Ganon he says: That sounds more like he's trying to break Link's will to fight than to convince him that the Gods are the evil ones. |
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 8, 2009 11:28:59 GMT -5
I'm beginning to see that the running flaw in this discussion is that everybody is forgetting how the exact events in the games happened. Lord knows I don't remember anything myself. I don't even think I beat Wind Waker. My cousin did and I was there with him. >_> |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 8, 2009 14:18:42 GMT -5
Yeah. I just started a replay of OoT yesterday after not playing it for a while, so some plot points are getting a bit hazy. (I've just entered the Fire Temple, got the Giant's Wallet, and picked up my Claim's Check.) I've never claimed to have much knowledge on Wind Waker (in the form of my "I'm not sure, but I read somewhere..." disclaimer.) Going to go back for a few more replays of several games in the future to glean as much as I can from the games.
Also, if I've seemed preachy lately, I apologize right now (especially if I've offended anyone, but I maintain my apology for mere preachiness as well.) I don't mean to seem that way (offensive or preachy, both apply,) I've just entered what I can only describe as spiritual puberty. So please, don't think I mean for these things to seem holier-than-thou, I don't.
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 8, 2009 16:58:11 GMT -5
Spiritual....puberty? Whatever you say, dude.  |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 8, 2009 17:27:45 GMT -5
Yeah. You know how, when a kid gets big all of a sudden, he isn't used to his body and starts knocking crap over all the time? Same principle: My brain has all of this big information and isn't used to expressing it without it being intrusive. Hence I call it "Spiritual puberty." Plus the entertainment value of pairing the realization of the divine with someone's nuts dropping. =P
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 8, 2009 20:39:08 GMT -5
...Can we play Spirit Tracks now? (Well, at least anyone who does have it now.) When done with that, let's see which Zelda game is supposed to come after that... |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 9, 2009 4:18:51 GMT -5
Knowing our luck, it'll come after Twilight Princess but lead into Majora's Mask, forcing everyone to reevaluate whether the "sequel" games are really sequels, and everything gets rewritten again. Because I'm sure Nintendo's determined to screw with us  |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 9, 2009 15:07:44 GMT -5
If that happened my brain would kill itself with its own electrical pulses. It'd be an amazing death to watch, though I bet it'd hurt like hell. Like watching a guy stick a fork in an electrical socket with his mouth while having his skull implode, and feel that way too.
Actually, I read somewhere rather recently a bit about it. Spoilers ahead.
According to these folks, the game takes place a century after Wind Waker. Link and Tetra, in their travels, found a kingdom on a distant continent. There was this whack-job, Malladus, in charge, so they imprison him and take over the kingdom, renaming it Hyrule. A century later, Malladus comes back, taking away the so-called Spirit Tracks. Link's this apprentice train engineer. On the day his apprenticeship ends, he's taken to the palace to recieve a diploma(?) from Zelda. Zelda hands him his diploma with a note telling him to meet her in some other room. Being the horny bastard he is, Link slips off after graduation to find Zelda, who has news for him: The Spirit Tracks, both a mode of transportation and the ethereal chains of Malladus, are disappearing from the world, and so would like to investigate this with Link. While investigating, BOOM in comes this guy, Chancellor Cole (anyone ever notice, by the way, that the chancellor is always the bad guy? And has anyone noticed his name is Cole?) comes along. He wants to bring back Malladus, so he attaks Zelda, splitting her spirit from her body (he takes her body because he needs her powers.) Because of this, she is forced to travel with Link to be reunited with her body (and, of course, stop Malladus from coming back and get the Spirit Tracks restored.)
Part of this I found on Wikipedia, part I can't remember the source for.
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 9, 2009 20:26:11 GMT -5
Spiritual Puberty? No I think Ganondorf just evolved into a more three dimensional character in the WW, probably because of a different writter for the game.
All characters evolve eventually.
Oh and Kirbychu, I think the "Wind" was a metaphore for the gods.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 9, 2009 22:55:40 GMT -5
I stress first-person pronouns.
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