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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 1, 2009 10:51:33 GMT -5
'Fraid I don't understand your logic. Wasn't it stated that Ganon transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World when he tried to take the Triforce? He obviously escaped for the timeline in the first LoZ, judging that you fight him in the regular world. Ganondorf / Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm during the Imprisoning War (OoT) and transformed it into the Dark World. He then used his ability to influence evil minds to breach the divide and use Agahnim's magic to break the seal between Hyrule and the Sacred Realm (ALttP). If he could simply escape in the time between those two stories, then that undermines the importance of one or the other. OoT didn't achieve anything, or ALttP was just that mischievous Ganon popping out of his evil realm again. Of course, this is me still holding out some kind of hope that this whole thing makes sense without making any of the stories redundant... which following TWW and TP seems nearly impossible. And this is why I developed my "Fan Theory" (chortle), where each of the storylines is a separate branch from the OoT/MM starting story. OoT > TP Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm, but the sages manage to stop him and supposedly destroy him. He re-emerges having manipulated Zant of the Twilight Realm to take over Hyrule, and then discards his puppet and siezes power. Link kills Ganondorf. OoT > TWW Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm, and nobody appears to stop him, so the king buries Hyrule beneath the Great Sea using the united power of the Triforce. Ganondorf emerges again many years later searching for the descendent of Princess Zelda. Link kills Ganondorf. OoT > ALttP Ganondorf is attempting to escape the Sacred Realm by manipulating the wizard Agahnim to kidnap the descendents of the sages that sealed him there and break the seal separating the worlds. Link kills Ganondorf. OoT > LoZ/AoL Ganondorf escapes the Sacred Realm and kidnaps Zelda in search of the Triforce of Wisdom, which has been broken up and hidden. The Triforce of Courage has also been hidden in the Great Palace. Link kills Ganondorf. This is a neat little way of looking at the storylines, and I really want somebody to pick it to pieces rather than dismissing it. Yes, it means Ocarina of Time has more than just two endings, and every mini-storyline is a separate branch... but who knows how much Link fucks around with his Ocarina after the end of OoT/MM. But it basically means the Zelda storyline IS a retelling of the same story time and again, but with slight differences. It means we don't need to find a link between LoZ and ALttP, or how TP and TWW might be related, if at all... |
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Post by MEGAߥTE on Dec 1, 2009 11:34:44 GMT -5
Well, Wind Waker noted how the hero had appeared many times throughout history to battle the evil, which would make it more logical for the stories to follow a progression than be parallel (aside from TP and WW/DS games, which was confirmed by Aonuma). The fact that each story is similar seems to be a feature of the overall storyline; it's like the cast is doomed to repeat their actions.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 1, 2009 14:18:59 GMT -5
If he could simply escape in the time between those two stories, then that undermines the importance of one or the other. OoT didn't achieve anything, or ALttP was just that mischievous Ganon popping out of his evil realm again. Not necessarily. If Ganon was never imprisoned after his last attempt (which would put LoZ between two games or at the end of a line) or if he had someone to aid him in his escape that we don't meet (and we don't necessarily have to, if he was in the Light World already in LoZ, he'd probably have killed the assistant beforehand to go unchallenged in obtaining the Triforce,) then LoZ started simply because he used the same trick he used in LttP and TP to get out of the Dark World before anyone realized it. My only question is when this could have happened. First of all, has Ganon ever finished a game without imprisonment? |
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Post by Hiker of Games on Dec 1, 2009 14:54:12 GMT -5
Well let's go through the list, shall we?
LoZ - Ganon is killed
ALttP - Ganon is killed (retconned as being sealed away or some such in Ancient Stone Tablets, but then he is killed in that game anyways)
OoT - Ganon is imprisoned in the Sacred Realm
Oracles - Ganon is killed
TWW - Ganon is kerstabbed in the head
FSA - Ganon is imprisoned in the Four Sword
TP - Ganon is killed
This guy has no luck at all.
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 1, 2009 16:00:50 GMT -5
So, basically, any game can fit LoZ as its "immediate" sequel if he was resurrected, with the exceptions of LoZ (for the very reason that, unless your circular timeline is right, no story can take place after itself,) OoT (because he's imprisoned,) and FSA (for the same reason.) Using Miyamoto's quote, we can further put in that LoZ takes place before or on another timeline from LttP, so LoZ can't be LttP's sequel by that. LoZ therefore can only take place after OoS/A, WW, or TP if he was resurrected prior to the events of LoZ (that you play.) If he was released, FSA and OoT are the options, and it could be on either line. Either way, that puts LoZ in ambiguity.
I like to think that WW is a prequel to LoZ, because LoZ seems to imply (to me) that Ganon didn't have the Triforce, but it isn't counted as an origin story. Ganon, then, would have to have lost the Triforce, as happened in WW. I can further support this idea by the fact that the Triforce, unwielded, had been claimed by the Royal Family in WW (through the King's wish,) which means that when Ganon attacked in LoZ, Zelda had access to the parts of the Triforce to allow her to scatter one part and send the other off. With Spirit Tracks taking out the only x-factor, what happened to the Great Sea, LoZ is basically set for this theory, unless Ganon appears in Spirit Tracks and either obtains the Triforce or is imprisoned at the end, both of which would put us right back where we started.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Dec 1, 2009 16:39:41 GMT -5
Here's the way I see it.
You got yourself your basic split timeline. On the child side, you get Ocarina of Time > Majora's Mask > Twilight Princess (and let's say Zelda Wii after that). Then you get your Adult Timeline with Ocarina of Time > The Wind Waker > Phantom Hourglass > Spirit Tracks. Somewhere in the Adult Timeline, I'm gonna throw in Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland. You know what? I'll tack it on the end. It looks pretty there.
Now we got ourselves a whole 'nother continuity. Lemme break it down like this:
The Minish Cap > Four Swords > Four Sword Adventures
So we got those three games. We know they go in that order. I put these at the beginning of the timeline because FSA has an alternate origin story for this continuity. Right after that, I'm gonna throw in A Link to the Past, with the implication that at some point Ganon escapes his containment in the Four Sword and causes the Imprisoning War. So Link kills Ganon, the Triforce is taken to Hyrule, and people are pretty happy about this. Link gets out of Dodge for Link's Awakening, meanwhile Ancient Stone Tablets happens (but nobody cares).
Following up A Link to the Past will be The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link. The Sleeping Zelda back story happens after A Link to the Past and before these games. By the end, the Triforce is reassembled at Hyrule and Ganon's minions are looking for a way to bring back their boss again. Some time later, they do just that in the Oracles game. Bam, Ganon is dead again. Everyone's happy.
In conclusion:
3D Timeline:
OoT (child)/MM > TP > Zelda Wii?
OoT (adult) > TWW/PH > ST > FPTRRL
2D Timeline:
TMC > FS/FSA > (Imprisoning War) > ALttP/LA > (Sleeping Zelda stuff) > LoZ/TAoL > Oracles
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Post by Shrikeswind on Dec 1, 2009 17:26:34 GMT -5
Huh. Though there are points I don't understand (primarily, I don't see why there would be a third timeline for the 2D games,) but some of those concepts are pretty solid, such as the placement of OoS/A. I'd like to say that the logical progression of some points lead to a fairly sensible order even on a timeline that doesn't feature a 2D split.
Imprisonment - OoT > MM > TP
Deluge - OoT > WW > PH > ST > LoZ > AoL > OoS/A
Unknown, seems to follow Imprisonment - TMC > 4S > 4SA
Unknown, seems to follow Deluge - LttP > LA
Canon Unknown - AST (Due to never being referred to again internally or otherwise.)
Not Canon - The Abominations of King Philips' Seedy Eye.
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 1, 2009 20:36:35 GMT -5
If there is one thing that is certain its that OoT was first. The rest... eh...
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Post by Manspeed on Dec 1, 2009 20:39:00 GMT -5
Just a side comment, but this is starting to sound like all those alternate Godzilla sequels made after Godzilla 2000 rebooted the franchise.  So far I think Fryguy, Masa and Shrike all have good timelines theories, even though they aren't official. If I were making a fan-made comic adaptation of Zelda (which I have along with several other pending ideas that may never come to fruition due to laziness/forgetfulness/bad circumstances) I'd go with one of those three ideas for the backstory. |
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Post by TV Eye on Dec 1, 2009 21:06:19 GMT -5
Well, there is one major clue in the Adult Timelines, and that is the Master Sword.
In a Link to the Past, the Master Sword was in a forest. Why? We later see it in OoT in the Temple of Time, and not in a forest. Okay, what's going on? Twilight Princess is released once again having you search for the Master Sword which is in a decaying Temple of Time which is...in a forest.
So, from this we can assume after years, the Temple of Time began to deteriorate, but the Master Sword stayed in its pedestal. So, it goes OoT, TP, and then aLttP.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Dec 1, 2009 21:09:37 GMT -5
(primarily, I don't see why there would be a third timeline for the 2D games,) Because it takes a lot of silly finagling to make the 2D games fit with the 3D games. There also seems to be no effort to make them connect, although the 3D games have a very strong cohesive timeline. It makes sense to just assume they have nothing to do with one another. |
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Dec 1, 2009 23:11:51 GMT -5
In a Link to the Past, the Master Sword was in a forest. Why? We later see it in OoT in the Temple of Time, and not in a forest. Okay, what's going on? Twilight Princess is released once again having you search for the Master Sword which is in a decaying Temple of Time which is...in a forest. Which in ALttP is named... the Lost Woods! Which didn't coincide with the the Temple of Time in Ocarina of Time. Minor things like that have made me a follower of the "Just a Legend" theory as described on Zeldapedia, no matter how boring it may seem to some of you ^_^' If all the Zelda games that will be in history had been scripted in a beginning, then it all would be more consistent. But no, I guess it's an undetermined number of Zelda games. |
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 2, 2009 5:25:21 GMT -5
TMC > FS/FSA > (Imprisoning War) > ALttP/LA > (Sleeping Zelda stuff) > LoZ/TAoL > Oracles Is there a reason for the sleeping Zelda stuff being there? I always figured that backstory took place sometime before the beginning of the timeline, since it explains why every princess is named Zelda. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 2, 2009 6:14:43 GMT -5
Fitting the original two games into the timeline is tricky, sure... but ALttP is Ganon escaping after the Imprisoning War, which is the story of OoT, so fitting those two together works. At least... that's how the story WAS back in 1998. I agree that TP seems to bridge the gap between OoT and ALttP, but it's a gap that didn't need bridging. The forest taking over the site of the Temple of Time, Hyrule Castle being a very fancy-pants version of the one that appeared in ALttP (with the same music too!)... It's clearly supposed to be a bridge. But it's never been 100% clear how LoZ/AoL tie to the others. Miyamoto's comment clashed with the general view that they came after ALttP. We know Ganon can be revived. But that doesn't make much sense, even as a connection between OoT and TWW. I thought the idea was the Hero of Time vanquished Ganon, then nobody turned up to vanquish Ganon and the world was flooded, and then Link became the Hero of Winds to vanquish Ganon for a second time. The quote (which I vaguely remember) either suggests that between OoT and Hyrule becoming the Great Sea there are a bunch more stories of Ganon/Link fighting, or that the battles between Legendary Hero and a Great Evil predate OoT... Now I remember why I hate talking about the Zelda timeline. My brain hurts  |
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 2, 2009 8:04:50 GMT -5
I still think they should make a Zelda game about a Link who is for some reason unable to defeat Ganon and instead resorts to somehow causing time to be frozen and the world to be flooded until someone else who CAN stop Ganon comes along.
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