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Post by Boo Destroyer on Nov 30, 2009 19:45:19 GMT -5
I've been wondering why and how OOT is supposed to be the first in the series too. It must be thanks to the whole creation thing with the goddesses.
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Post by TV Eye on Nov 30, 2009 19:51:33 GMT -5
Are you guys serious? How could anyone not of heard of this Miyamoto quote? Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.SourceThis was in 1998, though, so newer games could take place before it, but it's obvious Twilight Princess takes place after OoT and before aLttP, but there is a very good chance Minish Cap is the first. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 30, 2009 19:57:11 GMT -5
Dark magic is different from the power of the Triforce. If I'm not mistaken, several grunts who in no way would ever have the Triforce backing them are capable of using it.
It's possible that both are true. He had a clear chance of killing Link while he was down and he didn't take it, implying Link's necessity to his plan. It's unknown how powerful he could be, but it's just as possible that he wasn't using full power as it is that he couldn't use magic of that power.
I'm actually not sure where this idea started, but it may be simply a thought people as a whole came to. Ganondorf seems like the sort to pull a stunt like that. He orchestrates all kinds of impressive schemes throughout the games, so to think he might ignite a civil war without looking like the aggressor is not only within the realm of possibility but even seems reasonable.
Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.
I have to ask: Where does the theory that Awakening comes after LttP come from? If it's official, we have an answer.
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Post by Hiker of Games on Nov 30, 2009 20:10:42 GMT -5
Nothing much to officially say Awakening is ALttP's sequel. But really the most damning evidence is that it recycles artwork from ALttP and uses the same style Link's appearance remains unchanged from the previous game. This may not seem like much, but typically each Link has their own unique look.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Nov 30, 2009 21:23:52 GMT -5
Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past. It's not very clear where Link's Awakening fits in--it could be anytime after Ocarina of Time.I have to ask: Where does the theory that Awakening comes after LttP come from? If it's official, we have an answer. An answer to what? To Miyamoto's statement? Other hints that Link's Awakening could take place after A Link to the Past are the Nightmares and certain weapons and the presence of things like the Turtle Rock. However, that still isn't any definitive evidence. Other recent games contain the Hookshot and it's not because it helped past heroes of Hyrule, but because it helped Nintendo in making interesting dungeons in previous games. The Nightmares and the Turtle Rock could be mere cameos in that sense. The manual and other Nintendo material does say that Link in Link's Awakening came from past adventures in Hyrule, though. It also says that he had defeated Ganon. |
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Post by Shrikeswind on Nov 30, 2009 21:28:13 GMT -5
To where the game goes. In a sense, then, yes.
Thing is, that could just as well mean Link is the one from OoT as it could mean the one from TP to the one from LttP. Defeat is a broad word in that sense: One can be defeated and still come back for more or be defeated and never return.
THE REST OF THIS POST WAS BEING POSTED WHEN JOHANS REPLIED. THIS PART OF THE POST IS TO HIKER. CAPS LOCK IS FUN. =P
Minute details mean nothing, unfortunately. The series has a tendency to use these details simply as cameos and references, which means even saying the eye of Fused Shadow looks like Majora's eyes doesn't mean much. No matter how unique each Link looks from another, there's still that point at which determining seperation is impossible. For the sake of placement, I do consider the Links the same, but it's one of those issues where, if they are proven as not so, I immediately dispel it.
The thing I like about games with Ganon is that he is constant and that his return heralds a brand new hero. That makes them easy to place, all we need is to know is its relationship to other games, for example, Wind Waker is on a different branch of the timeline from the concurrent Twilight Princess. Based on that, Miyamoto's quote, and the relationship with games where he isn't the main villain, one can say what goes where with Ganon's games.
Deluge - OoT > WW > PH > ST
Imprisonment - OoT > MM > TP
Unknown - OoT > LoZ > AoL > LttP
The only games we don't have any relationships for are the portables. That's the chief issue in this and the point that drives me craziest. If we only had a place for them, we'd have a way to determine the whole thing. You're stuck delving into the unknowable mists of hypothesis, and that doesn't do any good except to create a running idea for the time-being.
And that's the timeline fact: OoT starts it, and everything since is debated. I wonder how we managed to go from pre-Ocarina lore to timeline debate.
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Post by Johans Nidorino on Nov 30, 2009 21:57:23 GMT -5
I wonder how we managed to go from pre-Ocarina lore to timeline debate. We're geek people and couldn't resist replying to Sqrt2. Then you asked a question and we couldn't resist either ;D |
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Nov 30, 2009 21:59:10 GMT -5
Or that's just a forum being a forum. ;D
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Post by Hiker of Games on Nov 30, 2009 22:20:16 GMT -5
Minute details mean nothing, unfortunately. The series has a tendency to use these details simply as cameos and references, which means even saying the eye of Fused Shadow looks like Majora's eyes doesn't mean much. No matter how unique each Link looks from another, there's still that point at which determining seperation is impossible. For the sake of placement, I do consider the Links the same, but it's one of those issues where, if they are proven as not so, I immediately dispel it. I dunno if I'd call that minute. Almost any game can be molded to Link's Awakenings storyline (even with all the items and nightmares and such), but the fact the artwork definitively shows it to be the same exact Link (complete with his bare legs no less!) seems like the most definitive things you're going to get. The Zelda series isn't one that tends to recycle artwork a whole lot. |
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Post by Koopaul on Dec 1, 2009 1:17:52 GMT -5
Gah this wasn't what my topic was supposed to be about!
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Post by Hiker of Games on Dec 1, 2009 1:42:17 GMT -5
Welcome to the internet. Take your coat off, stay awhile. We have cookies.
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Post by Boo Destroyer on Dec 1, 2009 1:43:00 GMT -5
Gamehiker is right, you know.  |
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Post by kirbychu on Dec 1, 2009 6:37:58 GMT -5
Nothing much to officially say Awakening is ALttP's sequel. But really the most damning evidence is that it recycles artwork from ALttP and uses the same style Link's appearance remains unchanged from the previous game. This may not seem like much, but typically each Link has their own unique look. I think the most damning evidence is that, while manifesting itself as Link's nightmares, DethI turns into Agahnim. The only Links who ever met Agahnim are ALttP Link and Oracle Link. But for ALttP Link Agahnim was a major antagonist, while for Oracle Link he was just another forgettable dungeon miniboss halfway through the game. Therefore, it only really makes sense for Agahnim to be ALttP Link's nightmare. |
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Post by Fryguy64 on Dec 1, 2009 7:19:39 GMT -5
Nothing much to officially say Awakening is ALttP's sequel. But really the most damning evidence is that it recycles artwork from ALttP and uses the same style Link's appearance remains unchanged from the previous game. This may not seem like much, but typically each Link has their own unique look. The biggest piece of evidence that LA comes after LttP is that there wasn't this whole timeline debate back then because there were only four games: LoZ is followed by AoL, and that is undisputed. ALttP is followed by LA, and that was not disputed at the time. Now, Link goes on his sailing voyage after slaying Ganon. Which means LA either comes between LoZ and AoL or it comes after ALttP. And I don't think I've ever heard anybody claim that LA is an intermediate between the first two games. Ignoring the English name, ALttP could feasibly come before or after the original games with a bit of jiggery pokery, but the fact it tells of the Imprisoning War where Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm / Dark World means that many assumed it was a prequel to the original series. When Ocarina of Time was released as the first game in the series, it actually features the rise of Ganondorf, his stealing of the Triforce of Power, becoming Ganon and the Imprisoning War by the Sages, as told in ALttP... so it was confirmed that Ocarina HAD to be followed by ALttP. Which is why Miyamoto started this whole timeline debate when he was quoted as saying: This is clearly wrong. Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm between OoT and ALttP, so how could he invade Hyrule halfway through? And why, when there is absolutely no need for it, would you retcon Link in Link's Awakening to be any Link in the series. That very quote, which could very well be totally wrong (as Miyamoto doesn't speak English, and the translation could be bad or confused) started this whole timeline debate 10 years ago. And then later games in the series just seemed to make it worse and worse, destroying the entire world (TWW), or the world existing as an intermediate between OoT and ALttP (TP), or even a separate storyline that might pre-date OoT (TMC). Now we have multiple timelines sprouting from OoT, we have every little transgression pored over for clues as to the position in the timeline, and all because of one quote that was wrong when it was said. There was no debate before that. |
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Post by TV Eye on Dec 1, 2009 10:13:08 GMT -5
This is clearly wrong. Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm between OoT and ALttP, so how could he invade Hyrule halfway through? 'Fraid I don't understand your logic. Wasn't it stated that Ganon transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World when he tried to take the Triforce? He obviously escaped for the timeline in the first LoZ, judging that you fight him in the regular world. And if anyone has any doubts about OoT being first, consider this. The king meets Ganondorf in OoT, and no one thinks of him as evil, also, the Gerudo's state he was born recently, so...yup. |
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